Jeff, the historical scaffolding is solid, the Mazower material, the post-67 identity reformation, the 1974 polemic. All accepted. But that’s the setup, and I think the argument it builds toward is doing something you might not intend.
You spend most of the piece on a careful structural account, drift, identity formation, feedback loops, then in the last few paragraphs it tips into moral verdict. “Turned the majority into haters, and eventually killers.” “Ending civilization in Iran tonight.” The structural read doesn’t really licence those lines, but they land anyway, carried by the authority the structural read built up.
The other thing worth sitting with is that the framework runs one way. You’re properly sceptical of the myths you want to dismantle, the “people that dwells alone,” the eternal-hatred thesis. Less so about the framing devices you prefer, the spiral, the feedback loop, the saviour complex. Both sides in this are adaptive organisms running escalation cycles. Once one becomes the structural actor and the other becomes the moral verdict, the analysis is doing something different from what it looks like it’s doing.
One small mirror: the top comment on the post reads “Free Palestine and Rot in H Israel.” Worth asking whether that’s the reader the framing is reaching, and whether that’s the one you wanted.
If that isn’t evidence that the majority of the population have been turned into haters, I don’t know what is. I once recognised that a significant portion of Israeli society , and the views of Jews in other countries were progressive and tolerant zionists. I see that demographic as disappearing, or increasingly fearful of expressing their views.
But 82% under late-stage war conditions, hostages, two years of siege, is a population inside an escalation cycle, not a fixed disposition. Run the same instrument on most populations after comparable conditions and you get ugly numbers. Doesn't excuse it.
Does mean "turned into haters" mistakes a state for a trait.
The disappearing progressive Zionist is the real signal. Not that Israelis became haters, but that the ground the moderate centre stood on got dismantled. They didn't lose an argument, the conditions sustaining them were removed.
Which is where Rich loses me too. Reads the outcome as revelation of what Israelis are, rather than what the system produced. Same trap on the other side if you read Palestinian polling the same way. Both populations are downstream of the cycle, not authors of it.
Once you've classified 82% as haters, the action space opens up on its own and the only question left is degree. October 7 was a previous answer to a previous version of that question. The 82% poll is partly the response to the response. Run the loop forward and you get kill 'em all, which is just what tribalism sounds like when it stops pretending.
The framework's real test is whether it survives the temptation to cash itself in for a verdict at the end. Rich gives in to it in his last three paragraphs. Your reply gives in to it in the first sentence. Mine probably gives in somewhere I haven't spotted yet. That's the work.
Netanyahu and supporters of the state of Israel keep trying to conflate Zionist Jews with all Jews - a political entity with a religious identity. The left and many Jews themselves largely distinguish Jews from Zionists.
At primary school age, friends were emerging from one Jewish school in east London and telling us they were superior as they were literally "chosen" for privilege by god. More progressive Jews, who didn't separate their kids from society, insist this meant "chosen" in the sense of having a benign responsibility for all humankind. So there you have one bifurcation in plain sight.
Jeff, the historical scaffolding is solid, the Mazower material, the post-67 identity reformation, the 1974 polemic. All accepted. But that’s the setup, and I think the argument it builds toward is doing something you might not intend.
You spend most of the piece on a careful structural account, drift, identity formation, feedback loops, then in the last few paragraphs it tips into moral verdict. “Turned the majority into haters, and eventually killers.” “Ending civilization in Iran tonight.” The structural read doesn’t really licence those lines, but they land anyway, carried by the authority the structural read built up.
The other thing worth sitting with is that the framework runs one way. You’re properly sceptical of the myths you want to dismantle, the “people that dwells alone,” the eternal-hatred thesis. Less so about the framing devices you prefer, the spiral, the feedback loop, the saviour complex. Both sides in this are adaptive organisms running escalation cycles. Once one becomes the structural actor and the other becomes the moral verdict, the analysis is doing something different from what it looks like it’s doing.
One small mirror: the top comment on the post reads “Free Palestine and Rot in H Israel.” Worth asking whether that’s the reader the framing is reaching, and whether that’s the one you wanted.
A recent (2025) survey of Israelis found 82% support the expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-06-03/ty-article/.premium/a-grim-poll-shows-most-jewish-israelis-support-expelling-gazans-its-brutal-and-true/00000197-3640-d9f1-abb7-7e742b300000
If that isn’t evidence that the majority of the population have been turned into haters, I don’t know what is. I once recognised that a significant portion of Israeli society , and the views of Jews in other countries were progressive and tolerant zionists. I see that demographic as disappearing, or increasingly fearful of expressing their views.
Poll's real, trend's real, not arguing either.
But 82% under late-stage war conditions, hostages, two years of siege, is a population inside an escalation cycle, not a fixed disposition. Run the same instrument on most populations after comparable conditions and you get ugly numbers. Doesn't excuse it.
Does mean "turned into haters" mistakes a state for a trait.
The disappearing progressive Zionist is the real signal. Not that Israelis became haters, but that the ground the moderate centre stood on got dismantled. They didn't lose an argument, the conditions sustaining them were removed.
Which is where Rich loses me too. Reads the outcome as revelation of what Israelis are, rather than what the system produced. Same trap on the other side if you read Palestinian polling the same way. Both populations are downstream of the cycle, not authors of it.
Once you've classified 82% as haters, the action space opens up on its own and the only question left is degree. October 7 was a previous answer to a previous version of that question. The 82% poll is partly the response to the response. Run the loop forward and you get kill 'em all, which is just what tribalism sounds like when it stops pretending.
The framework's real test is whether it survives the temptation to cash itself in for a verdict at the end. Rich gives in to it in his last three paragraphs. Your reply gives in to it in the first sentence. Mine probably gives in somewhere I haven't spotted yet. That's the work.
Netanyahu and supporters of the state of Israel keep trying to conflate Zionist Jews with all Jews - a political entity with a religious identity. The left and many Jews themselves largely distinguish Jews from Zionists.
At primary school age, friends were emerging from one Jewish school in east London and telling us they were superior as they were literally "chosen" for privilege by god. More progressive Jews, who didn't separate their kids from society, insist this meant "chosen" in the sense of having a benign responsibility for all humankind. So there you have one bifurcation in plain sight.